Artist and Curator Walkthrough of This Is Not All There Is

Claire Gilman:
Hello everyone, and welcome to The Drawing Center. I'm Claire Gilman. I'm the chief curator at The Drawing Center and the organizer of this exhibition with Naudline. I feel sort of silly calling myself the organizer of this exhibition. But Naudline Pierre: This Is Not All There Is. And I'm so happy to have Naudline with me tonight to talk about the amazing work that she has made for us. I'll just start by saying that everything that you see here in this exhibition was produced for The Drawing Center, so all the drawings, the frames, the incredible throne sculptures. It's the type of project, one of my favorite projects that I do at The Drawing Center, which is commissioned projects, where I'm inviting someone to come in and make an entirely new body of work for us.

So, this show came about, I think it was probably two years when we sort of made the decision that we were going to do this. And I had been an admirer of Naudline's work for some time, and did a studio visit. And I think we felt a very strong connection from that first visit, and I knew that I wanted to work with Naudline in some way. And then the particular timing of this show came about because I had committed to doing the exhibition in the other space. I don't know if you had a chance to look at that show, but it's an exhibition of the work by the writer Khalil Gibran. And when I was thinking through Gibran's work and the way in which he's engaging with kind of non-sectarian forms of spirituality, and universalist expansive models of selfhood, and transcendental motifs, I thought immediately of Naudline and what a wonderful dialogue these two shows could potentially have and do have.

And I really wanted to think about these ideas as a continuum, as something that were important in Gibran's day but are also something that artists are engaging with in the current moment. So, I talked about Gibran a bit to Naudline, who I don't think was familiar with his work, but I think you felt that same connection. So, we decided that it would be wonderful to have this show at the same time as that show. That's sort of why it's happening at this particular time. And again, it's part of a series of projects where I'm inviting someone to come in and do an entirely new body of work.

And Naudline is someone who has made drawings, and I had seen some of her works on paper, but she really is primarily, or was primarily a painter. I saw it as an opportunity to allow her to delve into this medium that perhaps she had not given such an extensive an amount of time to in a really deep way. I will, with that, maybe turn that over to you with that question. What was it like to, first of all, to receive that invitation to do a show that was about drawing in this medium that perhaps you weren't as comfortable in, or maybe just had not dedicated as much time to his painting? And then, how did that process begin for you of deciding, "Okay, this is what I'm going to make for The Drawing Center"?

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, I'll start by saying that drawing, I would say, it was my first love as a kid. It's the most accessible way to make things. And I had a little folder of little characters. I would draw, like every kid. So, having the opportunity to return to that sort of way of working was really special. I had always made works on paper, but I kind of treated them as gems for myself. I wasn't always like, "Okay, here are my drawings, look at my drawings." It was very much like I made these things to capture ideas and to hold onto things that were a bit more fluid and free as an aside to my painting practice. I had always sort of made works on paper, but it wasn't in this focused way. So, when you approached me about this show, I was like, "Absolutely." First of all, I love The Drawing Center, and it's such an important institution in my eyes. And I had seen some really great shows here, so I was like, emphatically, "Yes, absolutely.

And then you brought Gibran's work to my attention and I felt, "Wow, this makes so much sense. And I really enjoy the possibility of being in conversation with this work." So yeah, I forgot your question.

Claire Gilman:
Just that experience of how did you then start to approach making this? And what did you make first? How did you start experimenting? Because it was a form of experimentation for you, and I think you did start sort of small in a way. And then got bigger as things went on.

Naudline Pierre:
Yes. So, I was coming off the heels of my show at the gallery, which I did a room full of drawings and several large scale drawings, and I wanted to keep going in that. So, I started, I want to say June last year, with a series of smaller works on paper that were sort of runoff from the works that I had just been doing. Like that one right there, the brown one with the sort of eggplant colored figure was one of the first, there was four that I started that were still working within the way that I had been making works on paper before. And then throughout the year, things just started to loosen up, and I started to really think about breaking past the edges of the paper and thinking about atmosphere first, and then placing the figures in the mysteries that the paper sort of held, where the ink pooled, and all of that.

So, throughout the months of making this work, I felt like I was being changed by making the work, and it fed into my painting practice. And I also wanted to expand on my sculptural practice as well, which is pretty new for me. But all of it felt like drawing.

Claire Gilman:
Yeah, I think there's a difference. I mean, there's certainly a difference that I can see between your painting practice and your drawing practice, although I think maybe your painting practice has changed somewhat in response to the drawings that you made. But for instance, that work I can see as being more connected to some of your earlier paintings in the sense that often your paintings would, in the past and maybe still, have a kind of central figure or central group of figures, and they're sort of situated in space, and there's maybe a clearer narrative focus. Whereas when you move around and you start to look at these drawings... And actually, it would be interesting also to hear from you, not just that one, but which are the earlier drawings and which are the later drawings. But they become much more atmospheric and much more spatial.

And yes, we had this conversation because at one point in the essay for the catalog, or maybe it was in the conversation prior to the writing of the essay, I was saying that they were sort of moving towards abstraction. And Naudline said, "Well, they are. No, but please bear in mind that they are never abstract. This is very important." And I said, "I know they're never abstract. They're moving towards it." And I think that is very important. If you look around, they are never abstract. There are always figures to be discovered. And in fact, these drawings so reward close looking because you think that you know what's going on in them, and then there are always things emerging that sort of come out of the ink. But I think you do see moments of great abstraction in these drawings. So, I'm wondering why was it, maybe, that working with this medium or working with drawing led to this kind of, if you allow me to say it, moved towards abstraction. What was it about that process?

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, I think I was searching, and I think in that search I was trusting these characters to tell me where to go next. And I just kept feeling like I had to let go of control, and I had to allow them to take that control from me and let me know how they wanted to appear. So, instead of me placing them on the paper, they were coming out of the paper to me, and I felt sort of like a guardian or a steward towards them, which is different for me because usually I speak about my work, and these characters are guardians. And it's like the roles kind of reversed. And I think this sort of move to abstraction, which I'm like, "Eh, it's not abstraction."

The move towards kind of blowing out the image and allowing for mystery and all of that, it was this concept of a fog or the mist. And we kept talking about that. And that was sort of a connection between Gibran's work and then the work that I made for this show; it's very much about the search and about things being concealed and then coming into view, and allowing these characters to choose when they're seen and when they're sort of obscured. A lot of it was trusting the material, trusting the process, and really letting the ink tell me what i needed to do.

Claire Gilman:
Maybe you could tell us a little bit about that process and how you use the materials, because I do think it has a lot to do with those specific materials of working with ink and paper and the way that paper responds to ink and ink responds to paper versus working with canvas and oil paint.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah. I wanted to have a little bit of play inserted into my process, and that sort of discovery of what will happen if I do this or spray this water or mix these two colors, and that sort of feeling of wonder about the material. I really wanted to do that. And that sort of also manifested in the way that some of the papers ripped and I'm making shapes and things. It was about going into my studio not having a plan, and honestly just allowing the material to speak to me. I think my process was very much putting down an atmosphere, creating a sense of space, and then building on top of that. So, that would mean I would have paper, I would choose a sort of color palette, and I knew I wanted to really challenge myself with this work to explore making a lot of work with earth tones.

A lot of my paintings are very bright and very chromatic, and I wanted to tone it down and see if I could still have impact. And I set out with all of these inks, and I would just kind of go and drop ink, and wet the paper, and sort of use my brush. And it wasn't about creating an image; it was about capturing a feeling. So I did that, and then I would step away from it. And then a lot of just sitting and staring, and then seeing faces come out of the paper, and seeing wings, and seeing serpents in areas where I could use flames to kind of fill a space. Especially in this one, I think some of those ink blots became these celestial beings. And you can see that some of it was already there, and then I placed some things on top.

Claire Gilman:
Like this one here. You can see how... And this one here as well.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah. Yeah. It was like a push and pull between things that were already there, things that were allowing me to discover them, and then things that I placed on top.

Claire Gilman:
Yeah, I feel like it's really, in a way, rather than... And this is actually a really wonderful comparison, in a way, between this drawing and this one, where you can see exactly what you're talking about. That figure, also in terms of color, that purple of that figure is a little more similar, maybe, to some of the color you're talking about in your paintings, although they are even more colorful, even brighter than that figure. But here, you can see it's a figure that you've drawn, and you've placed it in a space. Whereas here, it's almost less that you've drawn the figure than that you've allowed the figure to emerge.

Naudline Pierre:
Yes.

Claire Gilman:
You've taken these opportunities that have presented themselves in the space, and you've kind of given them form or allowed them to assume form. And I think that happens again, another place, a really beautiful place where that happens is behind Sasha there, that drawing with the brown, the series of faces down at the bottom, where again, on the one hand, they're just ink blots, on the other, they've become this whole other entity. And these are figures that are part of your lexicon. You use winged beings, you use fire, you use these symbols in your paintings, but here, instead of just laying them down, you kind of allow them to come out.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, I think this work is a lot about trust between myself and then this other world. It's like a window, and they're like, "Okay, you can look at us now." And then there are some moments where they're like, "Absolutely not." That one all the way in the back, the blue with all the black on it, to me, was one that was very much obscured. It started out being more legible, and then I just kept feeling I needed to add more to give them a veil or a screen, give them some privacy. So yeah, I think it was a push and pull between allowing them to be seen and then giving them that sense of agency about how they were going to be seen or whether they could be seen at all.

Claire Gilman:
And I think another interesting thing about that drawing, and I know that drawing was a difficult drawing for you.

Naudline Pierre:
It was.

Claire Gilman:
You speak about it as being one that you still are not entirely comfortable with.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah.

Claire Gilman:
Which I'm interested to hear about. There is a very strong figural presence in that drawing, but it's a figure that's sort of up at the top, towards the left. It's not a centralized figural presence. It's almost that the figures are part of the space, and they're essential to the space, but they aren't necessarily dominating the space. In a way, in this image, I think that the space is the central character, and then the figure is... And you have this wonderful word you used to describe the other figures that are not your main, the kind of helper figures or something. You've had this word to describe not the main protagonist but the other figures.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, they're like accessory.

Claire Gilman:
Accessory characters or sort of guide characters. But I think in this case, in a way, the central figure becomes the space, and the other figures are part of that space or within that space as opposed to dominating the space. I don't know if that's what made that drawing challenging for you because it was so different in that way, or if there are other...

Naudline Pierre:
I think when I made it, it felt like it was really raw for me, and I needed protection. So I kept wanting to cover and cover and cover. It's not that I didn't like the image, but it felt like, "Oh no, I went too far. I went too deep. Maybe I went past what they allowed me." Like I went too deep into the world and I needed to come back a little bit. So, in the process, it was difficult.

Claire Gilman:
So it was more the process of making it than the finished result.

Naudline Pierre:
Yes, I think so.

Claire Gilman:
You carry that with you when you look back at it.

Naudline Pierre:
Yes.

Claire Gilman:
Maybe you could tell us what drawing in here did you sort of respond to the most intimately, or which one do you feel most connected to?

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, I think there are a few. I think the Suite of Three on that back wall there. They were the last ones I did. And by that time I was like, "Whatever, I'm just making work. I'm letting it go. I'm ripping paper." I think I had reached a feeling of freedom that was beyond what I thought I could do. So, those three are really special to me. But I would have to say the altar pieces and the ripped, the three stars up there, and that character up there. I think those pieces felt really special to me because they connect to, I think, my previous work and exploration into the altar piece and what that means. So, having a chance to mix sculpture and make these pieces of paper sculptural was really special. I would say those are the things that I really felt connected to more so than the others. I'm connected to all of it, but those were the ones that I was like, "Okay, I think I'm doing something. I'm actually making something here."

Claire Gilman:
Yeah. And by the way, if people have questions, I invite you to ask them. Please don't be shy. You can interrupt us at any point. But I think it's really fascinating to me the way the sculptural is very important to you in this work, particularly in the context of the fact that you are building these spaces. The depth of space that you are creating in these drawings is echoed in the sense of physical presence that you bring to them and the way you then carry that space of the drawings into the room through the sculptural elements. So, I feel like this room, and actually maybe that's an opportunity to talk a bit about the installation, but I feel like this room is, in a way, a continuation of the space that you're creating and the drawings. And that happens through the inclusion of these sculptural elements but also through the installation.

I don't know if, when we started out, did you have a clear idea of how you wanted the space to ultimately look? And you were making work for this space, but I don't know how directly you were thinking about that when you made it, or was it just something that was somewhere in the back of your mind?

Naudline Pierre:
I think there were a few things that we talked about early on, the wall color. We talked about how to address the column and some sort of a seating situation, and then the rest just kind of came. I think I started with the smaller works, they're what, 11 by 15, because that was the sort of size that I had been making work.

Claire Gilman:
Yes.

Naudline Pierre:
And then, once I got past that, I just started ripping paper, and I started making things that were different sizes, and we had so many visits, and we looked at things differently and rearranged things. And then, once I saw where I was going, I could start to think about the room. And I knew I wanted it to feel warm and dark, but also a place where you could really spend time with the work and have a moment of rest with the work. So, once I knew that, I was making and I was like, "We'll figure it out." You know?

Claire Gilman:
Yeah. Because I wonder if... I really love this space and inviting artists to work in this space. I think it's such a beautiful space and so intimate, and that actually poses a challenge of its own. It's a challenge to work in a big space, but it's also a challenge to work in a small space. And I wonder if, again, I don't know if you thought about this at all consciously, but let's say you'd been making work for a much bigger space; do you think you would have cultivated those same darker tones and the same sort of more subdued atmosphere? Or did that also come not just from working in drawing versus painting but also working specifically for this space?

Naudline Pierre:
I think the space definitely trickled into the process because I was thinking about how it, to me, felt kind of like a chapel, or it feels kind of narrow, and you're kind of held by the space and that really lovely curve into the skylight. And I think I knew that I wanted to use every little space that I could to really create a moment in here, like a mood. I just kept being like, "I want it to be moody. It has to be moody." So, I do think the space influenced what I was going to do, but then at a certain point I put everything out of my mind and I was like, "Just make," and then it came together.

Claire Gilman:
And it's interesting because you did work in so many different sizes, so many different forms, which did suggest a certain different mindset. If you had made all drawings, say, at this size, there wouldn't have been much opportunity for play, right? In terms of the installation, it would've just been drawings, which we've done in here, and it's wonderful. And that would've been a wonderful show, but that isn't what you made. And again, it was so much fun to figure out this installation, but again, I don't know if that was something that you were thinking that you wanted to add this sort of dynamism to it, which I think we were able to achieve because we had work of such variety.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah. I think it was in the back of my mind. I don't think I was super focused on this is what the installation needs to look like. I knew I wanted these large-scale works on this wall. I knew I wanted the benches, and then everything else was kind of like, "We'll see." And then when we got into looking at what I had made, we started to realize there were themes, like this idea of a satellite and stars, so placing things kind of higher up, and this idea of forcing you to shift your body around the work. Not only can you sit on the work, you also have to crane your neck. And maybe you can't see it, and maybe it's not for you, and maybe they need that moment to be here but not really here. I think we really thought about stars and looking up, and I thought it was really fun to have that work be the tallest point in the show, on the column above the throne.

Claire Gilman:
We made sure that that was the tallest point.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, that's the tallest point. And it's sort of like an odd starlike shape with a face in it. And it's that character; that's it. That's just the work. And it was nice for me to pull these characters out and give them their own space to be, because I think when you look at my work in general, a lot of it is centered around a central figure. But in this body of work, I think she appears maybe four times.

Claire Gilman:
So, she's in this drawing.

Naudline Pierre:
She's in this one.

Claire Gilman:
She's in that one.

Naudline Pierre:
She's in this right here, kind of small right there.

Claire Gilman:
And the green one at the top where she's kind of jumping down. And then there is one other one.

Naudline Pierre:
There's a monochromatic one where she's in. So, the rest, she's just implied. And that's different for me; that's something that was new for me. So it was a nice feeling to just make the work and let these accessory characters kind of have their stage to just be.

Claire Gilman:
And it's interesting; I don't know if we sort of consciously thought about this, but at least two of them that I'm looking at with that central figure are placed up high. So, in a way, it is offering her... I know you talked a lot about this, about giving, you used this word before, giving some sort of feeling of protection and allowing her to be inaccessible, so maybe you can't clearly see her. And that's okay. There's moments that you're meant to be able to fully take in and moments maybe where you aren't.

Naudline Pierre:
It's concealed. And I think that that is, to me, that's freedom.

Claire Gilman:
I think so too.

Q&A

Speaker #1:
Hi, my name is Yao. Nice to meet you. I love the way you talk about your relationship with these guardians, these angels. You were talking about how they were protecting you in previous works, and now you feel like you're protecting them. I do feel this kind of very intimate personal relationship in your drawings, as if I can feel their presence. And I wonder, when you move into your more sculptural works, how do you feel about your relationship with them, especially her? Is she there when you are making the chairs? Are these chairs like her chairs?

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, that's a great question. I think the process with making something like this chair or this iron sort of flamed frame, it's different for me because I'm making a drawing, I'm working with an architect. That architect is sending a drawing to a fabricator, so it's a bit more removed for me. So, I had a hard time feeling connected to the work, but once I grounded myself in like, "This is my drawing, and it is the act of drawing that brought this forth," I could feel connected to it. And I think once I felt connected to it, I could place her in this space as an implication. She's implied here. Just in this drawing here, she's implied. She's not there, but she is. So, I was looking at the sculpture in the same way and, ultimately, finding a way to take this very two-dimensional experience and make it three-dimensional so you can sort of live in that world a little.

Claire Gilman:
And I'll just add to that. I think also an important aspect of the sculptures is that there's another piece to them, which is the way that they integrate the viewer, the way in which they involve the viewer. The fact that maybe it's not as one-to- one of an intimate experience for you is okay, or kind of makes sense, because in a way you are opening things up to the viewer here, and you're saying this is an opportunity. You are providing that intimate possibility to the viewer because you're saying, "Here is an opportunity for you to sit and rest and take in, and I'm kind of inviting you into this situation."

Naudline Pierre:
Absolutely.

Claire Gilman:
In a certain sense.

Naudline Pierre:
Absolutely. And I think it was very clear to me since we first started talking that I wanted the public to be able to sit on the chairs to really engage with the work. They're iron; nothing's going to happen to them but time and rust. But in this environment, I was like, "I really want people to feel like they can sit and take in the work."

Claire Gilman:
And I think there's also something really lovely about that combination of materials: the lightness of paper, the way paper floats up. Paper has that lift and that dynamism, and we've kind of tried to bring that into the installation, but that there are also these moments of rooting, and grounding, and rest, and heaviness. It's important to have that duality in a certain sense. So, I feel like they really complement each other in that way.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah. I think so. It's like paper is here today, gone tomorrow. But an iron chair, you can set it on fire and it'd probably be fine.

Claire Gilman:
We won't try it.

Speaker #2:
Hi, my name is Wei-Ming Trang, and I appreciate your sharing your process for creativity as was imagination of the journey. When I came through, I think this is the beginning of the show, but I came through the other side and the interesting part is I noticed the heaviness from that end and then the journey of the fluid flow of the painting and display. And I particularly love those three that has different framing. It makes me feel like it's from here to there, and then you're pausing, you're struggling. There's an inner turmoil. So there's almost like a spiritual journey.

And then I see these four and I think, "Oh, they're like the north star," and then you exit with the green possibilities. And so the paper, the way you did it feels very light to me. And I know you said it was the last of the thing; it felt really free, but it also felt very spiritual and religious in some way, with the window seeing through, almost as if you're inviting light in. Was that the process you were also thinking maybe looking from the other side, having light come through and you're actually on the other side already?

Naudline Pierre:
Wow. I wasn't. Not at the top of my mind, at least. I do think that the work happens at a very intuitive level. So, I can't tell you that I planned any of this; it just kind of flowed. But I know my influences, and I know that I'm very much interested in looking at very traditional ways of work being structured. And that so happens to be a lot of religious artwork from a certain time period in art history. That's a huge influence to me. So, I think that that was where I was coming from in taking these sort of art historical references and remaking them so that they fit into this world that I'm creating. But I like that you have that perspective of that work; that it's like you're on the other side.

Speaker #2:
You're already on the other side, so you don't have to worry so much about the struggles in there. Because if you see these, you're thinking you're getting yourself into a mess of, "God knows. What do I do? Would I survive the fire by trial?" There's lot of fire in all this thing, and I see a lot of snake-figure thing, and you're not sure, is this the rebirth or the end of it? So I feel like I'm sitting by the gate of fire versus the relaxation I may feel on the other side because I see that the windows on the other side, and I'm looking in.

Naudline Pierre:
I like that. I think with my work, fire is a huge element, a sort of... To me, it's transformation. I like taking symbols that have multiple meanings because I think within multiplicity is freedom. And the most important thing for me as a person, not even as an artist, as a person, is that I want to be able to wake up every day and choose and be who I want to be that day and have that freedom to shift, and change, and grow. And I think with these works and these characters, I think they want the same thing. So, fire, for me, in one work may be really menacing and scary, and it's destruction, and then in another work, it's rebirth, and in another work, it's passion. I think it's exciting to have symbols in the work that can be anything.

Speaker #2:
I particularly noticed... I thought it was maybe Phoenix at the end and rebirth. That's why I thought maybe the journey starts from the other end, not from here, because then you're going into hell.

Naudline Pierre:
I like that.

Speaker #2:
I was thinking I kind of to walk around it in that way. So anyway, I wanted to know how you decided to place these in these orders.

Naudline Pierre:
I think some things come together just based on the vibes. And I think with the work we placed things... But this wall was an interesting wall.

Claire Gilman:
Yes.

Naudline Pierre:
We had a lot of different iterations of this wall, but this ended up being how we felt like it would work. And I like the fact that it is sort of darker in this over here, although the blues and the greens are corresponding across the room, but there is a feeling of lightness. And a lot of the work is about birthing yourself through your own will. So I like that that's something that you see.

Speaker #2:
Thank you.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah.

Speaker #3:
Can I ask a question?

Claire Gilman:
Yeah.

Naudline Pierre:
Of course.

Speaker #3:
You mentioned the multiplicity that's inherent in your work. Something that, looking at it, I've been wondering about is how that multiplicity specifically relates to your use of materials. Because from one work to the next, even just fire is depicted in many different ways. You've got fire made of water. You've got a very sharp-edged fire of earth. You've got this kind of-

Naudline Pierre:
Airy.

Speaker #3:
Yeah, airy kind of crayon that's falling apart. You also mentioned that this is very earthy, very elemental, and it really comes out in that different use of materials. Is there a method by which you choose to use those? Is it intuitive? It varies from work to work, so I'd just love to hear more about those decisions. Not necessarily just as it relates to the depiction of fire, but also how you're choosing to rip and tear the paper. It looks like at some point you've ripped the paper before you've painted on it. Does that happen right at the beginning? Does that happen during the painting process, and then it gets more put on it? I'm just curious about those decisions because they're very evident in the work.

Naudline Pierre:
I think, going back to multiplicity, it's freedom for me. So, being able to have fire in iron, in pastel, in ink, in whatever, I want to be able to do whatever I want. And where else can I have that freedom on this earth? Only in my studio. So, it just was sort of an intuitive thing where it's like, "Okay, this is how I'm feeling today. I just have to give into it." In terms of the process, the ripping paper was kind of an accident, and it started with the...

Claire Gilman:
Little ones.

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah, well, it originally started with that one in the back where there's the blobs and you kind of see that ripped area here.

Claire Gilman:
This one?

Naudline Pierre:
Yeah. That ripped area at the top. And I was going to throw the paper out, and then I was like, "No, I can still use it, I think." It's like a mark of time and what happened, and it's like a scar. And then I thought, "What if I expand that and I create something with a little more intention?" And then the altar pieces came, because I think in my previous work I've done altar pieces with different canvas sizes and created kind of a structural thing in that way. So, I did it with the paper, and then it just started. I was like, "I want to keep ripping paper." So I ripped paper. Some of the paper had a background on it already, and then I ripped it, and then I added more. So, it was very much feeling into what the material was asking me or asking from me.

Claire Gilman:
One thing I really like about the body of work that you produced here is that there are certain forms that appear in different guises. I love the fact that here you have the little star that kind of needs to be part of this ensemble. It's not alone. It needs fellows to come together. But then here, it's alone. Here, it's allowed to be alone. And then these early pieces, because these were pretty early, I remember when I came to... The first work that I saw that you were making for this show were those bits of the altar piece. And then probably a significant time later, you rendered them in much larger form here. So it's sort of all these echoes and correspondences between forms, which again is showing that there's no single iteration of something.

Each thing can be realized in different forms and in different relationships, and that different relationships are possible, which is something I really love.